Internment is like using an atom bomb to kill a spider
Regeneration will not be successful unless there is internment. The gardai know who is responsible for these feud-related crimes, the dogs in the street know who is responsible. Why not lock them up and stop them carrying out these random acts of violence?
-Fr. Joe Young, Former Curate of Southill
Father Joe Young, is the latest in an ever growing list of people calling for the internment of suspected criminal gang member in Limerick.
While locking up people without the inconvenience of a trial might be tempting, it can only in one result, disaster.
So what exactly is internment? Many who read this site may be familiar with, or have memories of suspected IRA members being interned by the British Government in the 1970s and 1980s. This was done in an effort to prevent them from blowing stuff up, but it ended up polarising the nationalist communities and internees were celebrated as heroes to the cause.
Internment is the imprisoning of individuals without a trial, for an indeterminate length of time.
The problem I would have with it would be that because a system of internment is being administered by human beings, they are, sooner or later, going to get it wrong, resulting in some innocent sod being dragged off the street and thrown into a cell for no particular reason.
In Limerick in particular, organised crime is centered around families. This poses the risk of someone being thrown into custody simply for being related to a suspected criminal. While you can choose your friends in this life, you cannot choose your family.
It is truly shocking that a man of the cloth, a Catholic priest who should be old enough to remember the internment of people in Northern Ireland, should be supportive of such measures.
What should be done, is the expansion of the role of the Special Criminal Court. While the SCC is far from perfect, it is the lesser of too evils when compared to internment
Also, for drugs and gun related crimes, judges need to be forced to observe manditory sentencing. Many judges are opposed to mandatory sentencing as it takes away some of their powers, but if the courts do not reflect the opinion of the law abiding people in society, then the legal system is not going to function properly or earn any respect.
March 31st, 2008 at 4:53 pm
There will be know internment. These criminals are keeping the Gardai in soft overtime. If the state were serious about sorting out this crime problem they would hound these guys constantly. If they put half the effort that they put into combating republicanism in this country they would sort this problem in a short period of time. Crime is a business and a lot of jobs from barristers to prison officers depend on these scumbags for their jobs. Crime will be kept at a acceptable level and once it does not touch the organs of the State in their leafy subarbs and manshions these scumbags will be able to operate.
March 31st, 2008 at 6:37 pm
The american government is conducting its own internment its called guantanamo bay, the american government believes that they are taking suspected or would be terrorists and holding them for society primarily americans protection . Its called the better be safe then sorry method and the rest of the world thinks its inhumane and horrible!They are doing this in the name of democratic regenaration extabilisation ‘thats a bushism” its not such good idea.
Fr Joe is speaking from a place called desperation he has done wonderful things for the kids of his parish I sympathize with him.
March 31st, 2008 at 6:39 pm
We may be taking his words out of context he may simply mean when they come before the judge STOP LETTING THEM WALK AND CONDUCT THERE BUISNESS OF CRIME. LOCK THEM UP!
March 31st, 2008 at 6:49 pm
Totally agree with you Squid. The likelihood of internment being (re)introduced is in any case zero. So why does Fr Joe Young say it?
March 31st, 2008 at 6:56 pm
I think it’s a great idea.
I’d be all for turning our backs for 6 weeks and let the guards round them all up.
I don’t think they would be missed.
March 31st, 2008 at 7:09 pm
@shanabooley
had he said “lock them up for their crimes” then I would be inclined to agree with you. but he said “lock them up to stop them carrying out crime.”
March 31st, 2008 at 7:18 pm
It’s the elephant in the room Johnone, it’s a lucrative business that feeds off this vile trade. The revolving door Judiciary, fatcat defence lawyers, politicians who mouth off about “sorting this out”. Would certainly hurt more than a few pockets for sure.
However I disagree that the leafy suburbs are now such safe havens. HSE sponsored housing for anti-social scumbags has changed the landscape and the social fabric of what up to recently would have been regarded as safe, crime-free suburbs.Ismaking more than a few people wonder just where is a safe place to avoid the drug gangs. Increasingly the answer seem to be nowhere! Mind you they have also moved in to what we might call “their customer base” as regards the end user of these products.
While internment is a harsh measure, remember Joe Young has been at the coalface of the drug menace long before most realised the growing influence of these people, it’s not a situation (drug gangs) to compare easily to a political problem such as The North is/was. You don’t sit down and negotiate with these people. They can not and will not be persuaded to stop dealing in drugs. There are many millions of euro to be made annually plus the power buzz associated with holding territories, ultra-modern weaponry and footsoldiers at their disposal,they feel it can never be prised from their hands.
If I might quote John Gilligan who remarked on RTERadio last week “This isn’t something where you call it a draw….you either win or you lose”. Peace Process niceities and smokey-room deals mean nothing to them, what do you offer them anyway? ffs, they could buy and sell the lot of us !!
For Joe Young to call for internment only shows how desperate someone who has gone to extreme lengths for many years to get these gangs to change their ways now feels. We had a situation where paramilitaries were locked up on the word of a Garda Superintendent, imo these scum present a far greater threat than any Provo ever did, so use that tactic - bear in mind an innocent won’t have a record a mile long either. We also know about how Juries are virtually impossible to protect, so the SCC non-jury system is one of the few weapons available left without upsetting the Human Rights Conventionalist’s too much. The failure of Judges to impose mandatory sentencing just shows how aloof they feel, preferring to exert power and judgement their way rather than follow the set guidelines from the people. Let it be made clear to them that the people demand of them to be on their side. Free Legal Aid should also be looked at - criminal millionaires are laughing at a system that pays for their defence/bail while they carry on with business. Jail should not be a pleasant place for these people. A “Supermax” type gaol for serious drug dealers and their murder gang members should be built out of mobile phone range in an isolated part of the west. Constant monitoring of activity and airport-style security for visits the norm….and no Sky Sports or Chines takeaways either!
Finally, the acceptance of social drugs in upper and middle classes needs to be addressed. They are the prime customers who enrich the coffers of the scum overlords. It’s time a few busts took place at some of the more exclusive clubs, pubs, parties, etc. and indeed at some offices. And while any clampdown on drink-driving is to be welcomed, random drug tests on drivers should also be increased. In all instances name-and-shame, no matter who the hell it is.
March 31st, 2008 at 8:19 pm
Nice one Hoof…
I think you’ve covered all the bases in that post.
I think that all elements of the problem from dealer to user should be targeted by the law. If there is no place for the users in jail, then perhaps a hefty fine and/or community service would be a good option. There is bucket loads of work that needs to be done in public areas around the country… Bring in the chain gang systems get them picking up rubbish, mowing the grass planting flowers, painting etc…
March 31st, 2008 at 8:59 pm
I think Father Young says it, as a last resort. He has seen first hand what the voilence caused by these drug dealers are doing. The guards do not have sufficent man power to tackle the problem we are all living with. So even though i do not believe internment will come about for the drug dealers. It would be a great way of getting them off of our streets. And i agree with what John has said. The users have an awful lot to answer for after all they keep the Drug Dealers in their flash cars, their foreign holidays which give them their attitudes that they are untouchable.
March 31st, 2008 at 10:32 pm
There is only a couple of ring leaders, the rest are little parasites who want to be like them, sad way to be, brainless scum of the earth, it’ll only get worse.
April 1st, 2008 at 9:53 am
“because a system of internment is being administered by human beings”
That’s a bit of a generalisation… surely not all members of our esteemed Gardaí can be classed as human beings! I’m surfe I know of a few who are bordeline
April 1st, 2008 at 12:16 pm
‘If they put half the effort that they put into combating republicanism in this country they would sort this problem in a short period of time. ‘
combating republicism? are you aware the the country you live in is a republic, founded by republicans, (as is france for example). Republicanism is not some type of extremist or right wing political dogma to be ‘combated’.
That said i take your point about the efforts to crush the republican movement in the south and the north for that matter but that was and is all about political repression NOT law and order. Internment did not work in that regard but thats becasuse it was political and the victims had public sympathy. Drug dealing, life ruining, murdering scumbags will not have broad sympathy outside of the ‘do-gooders’ and if they are locked away no one will give a shit about them.
That said it will probly never happen, all sorts of reasons accusations of including civil rights abuses. The drug problem in dublin was only combated by vigilantes backed up by the IRA but then the gardai and govt got embarrassed and locked up all the vigilantes and let the criminals get back to business as usual.
April 1st, 2008 at 4:23 pm
hahah well said cupid :) the Garda Shit-in-the-corner are often stigmatised as humans, its just not fair.
April 1st, 2008 at 4:27 pm
I’m tired of some lazy local politicians with their frequent calls for internment. Only the foolish would take any notice of them. They know well that there is 0% chance of internment being introduced.
These silly calls simply distract attention from the fact that some of these local politicians have been wining & dining on the Limerick police board for years while their electorate is being left to suffer.
I think that Father Young is ill advised in allowing himself to be sucked into this publicity stunt.
Lets vote these useless local politicians out at the next local election.
April 1st, 2008 at 6:43 pm
James bob, Why lecture me if you knew the point I was making about Republicanism?
As I said above crime is a business and a lot of jobs depend on it. All this talk about Internment is pointless.
April 1st, 2008 at 9:19 pm
Internment as a discussion is pointless because it will never ever happen in this instance. Mandatory sentences have to be realised first by the Judiciary and Internment is a non issue. Why not start with the laws in force already get the legal system to work.
April 2nd, 2008 at 12:46 pm
Precisely, Shan. There are enough laws and measures on the Statute Books to clamp down on these scum without resorting to internment calls. These guys should be picked up for minor offences, TV licence, dog licence, littering, car tax, etc. - stay on their backs 24 hours a day.
CAB has proved limited enough, why they accept a portion of ill-gotten gain as “tax” is ludicrous. But I’m sure they’re being hampered by auditors and accountatnts who have little enough scruples when it comes to how and where their “clients” make money.
Getting the Gods of our legal system to come down from the ivory tower and live amongst us would certainly help. They need a dose of reality.
April 2nd, 2008 at 2:39 pm
what your all ignoring is the fact that this whole mess is caused by the well heeled respectable law abiding people who buy these drugs. stop the demand and this problem dies. the users of drugs are the real scum here they are going to the pushers.
April 2nd, 2008 at 4:11 pm
tommy: I think more than a few posts have mentioned the “customers”, and yes they should face prosecution and punishment because - no doubt about it - they are fuelling this business and the murderous extremes to which the dealers go in order to preserve it.
April 2nd, 2008 at 10:07 pm
Tommy not all drug customers are “well heeled” the point here is that Realism has to take hold. The law has to be brought to bear on all individuals that fuel the drug Empire. Judges should be enforcing mandatory sentences and lets have a zero tolerance on all drug use. However it’s the lifestyle that goes hand in hand with this culture that is causing havoc on society as a whole.
April 3rd, 2008 at 6:27 pm
you cant jail everyone because you would need about twenty more prisons. what i would do is this i would give anyone selling herion . even small amounts 5 years large amounts 10 years. anyone selling cannabis or ecstacy would get 3 years. no suspended sentences.i regard people who sell heroin as terrorists. no mercy on these scum.i would name and shame people who use drugs. force them to undergo tests to see have they used drugs and if they break the order twice send them to prison. same with anyone caught with a knife prison straight away
April 23rd, 2008 at 5:06 pm
The problem with interernment is that you cannot apply this the current politics of law here in ireland,given the way our contries policies have developed and changed,it would be like implementing SHARIA LAW or some medevil religion harking back to another era,imagine the arrogance of fr joes suggestion?this would conflict with the day to day running of economics and civil law..For example who is to say someone innocent maybe forcibly detained without one shred of biological or circumstantial evidence or by cctv?This is a flawed solution to the problem of 21st century crime.It is almost laughably cliche that a priest called for this.Religion has not developed sine the dark ages!Father joe young called for this internment this is the problem with religion and politics it just doesnt work..